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Posted by Germain on 28 Feb 2012 /
44 Comments
Feb
28
2012
44Good evening!
Sorry for the delay, we’ve both been away this weekend, so writing the blog post had to wait until today. Work is slowly moving away from weekends and more during the weekdays, so Sunday blog posts are becoming less relevant. We plan on posting two dev diaries in quick succession in the upcoming weeks to move this weekly update to Fridays or Wednesdays. But not for now.
Anyway, this week I’ve seen some amazing things going on. Our new collaborator Benoit is quickly getting the hang of both Unity and our voxel engine (which we decided to call the Brix engine, like the first dev name of Castle Story). So with his help, new and exciting features have been emerging at a faster rate. Here’s a few of them:
- Implemented a form of cellular pathfinding. Last week we talked about an improvement that would significantly speed up our pathfinding algorithm. Well that’s it. Basically we divide the entire walkable universe in a set of large “cells”; large, self-contained groups of tiles that know their neighbor cells. Before letting the pathfinding loose in the single tiles, we make a run in the cells first. This way we eliminate the vast majority of the cells that you do not need to walk through to get to you destination. This way, we can do our path search in a much smaller universe, for a lower cost to the CPU.
- Started work on arbitrary path liberties. This is probably the most vague phrase ever, but that’s because we don’t really have a name for what we’re trying to describe. Path liberties is what the pathfinding uses to spread around the universe and find out where it can go, and if two places are linked by a route. At the moment, if you are standing on a tile, the liberties will tell you that you can go forward, backwards, left and right. Unless you are facing a wall. In this case, forward will not be part of your liberties. Arbitrary path liberties is a significant upgrade to our system in that it allows a tile to have an arbitrarily large amount of liberties in any direction possible. An example of this is if you are standing at the bottom of a ladder (yes! ladders!) you can walk backwards, left, right but also upwards! But let’s say the ladders extends downwards as well, this becomes quite complicated, right? Arbitrary liberties helps with that. Also it would help making portals that link faraway places.
- Implemented a Level Of Detail (LOD) system. This is probably the most exciting this for me as an artist. Basically, LOD selects different geometry of objects depending on the distance they are from the camera. For example, a tree currently has something like 191 triangles. By itself, this is not a problem, but there are hundreds if not thousands of trees in the world at any moment. This is really bad for your computer and it limits the number of trees we can put on screen. Instead, we create 3 or 4 versions of a single tree with different levels of complexity, and select what version we use according to the distance to the camera. In effect, we hope that the uglier tree will not be so ugly when you look at it from far away. Here’s an example of what I mean:
By the way, you’re not supposed to ever see a LOD3 tree from up close. Don’t worry, you’ll never have to feel that pain. What’s really fun about this is that once we’re done testing this on trees, we’ll be able to scale this system to any object; trees, plants, rocks, terrain and characters. This will allow us to have vast worlds, with lots of objects, and the engine will not crumble under the sheer number of triangles it has to render. Huzzah!
Soundtrack of the week
This week we needed to concentrate, so something a bit more chill felt welcome. In this case, our favorite soundtrack has been Zero 7′s When It Falls.
For appropriate levels of groove, a sound system with good bass is a must.
Thanks for reading,
and keep your stick on the ice!
The Sauropod team
44 Comments for Dev diary number three : Levels of Detail and Awesome
Bryce Pelletier
1 years ago
Yea! Effein amazing. Definitely lookin forward to sending some Bricktrons down the top of a mountian and through the side so that the easiest way to the castle on top of the mountain is through the winding staircase that will surely be riddled with traps for the baddies. Glad to see such great progress! Keep it up.
Cheers
Bryce
Dont42Panic
1 years ago
I love you dev diaries! They’re fantastic! Not just, “Oh, we did this crazy term,” and leave it at that, but you explain your plans and changes so that we can understand how they work. It is a big inspiration to me, as a aspiring game dev. Thanks guys! Keep up the amazing work!
tom
1 years ago
i wish i could program to dev a game. most of what your guys say makes sense in a blah blah language way but it is still VERY interesting to read not to mention engaging
Riley
1 years ago
Can’t wait to play.
Chris
1 years ago
Awesome diary as usual guys.
One question, how are you going to scale the LOD of complex user-created geometry? as in.. the castles!
Ryan
1 years ago
I’m guessing there won’t be hundreds of thousands of castles, so it won’t take too much processing power to fully render 30 full castles. 300,000 trees, different story.
Germain
1 years ago
We reconstruct the local geometry with a version that’s a bit more simple. For example, we use a pre-made model for stairs. We could switch that pre-made model for a simple slope instead. There’s a limit, however, to how much triangles we can save with this solution.
1 years ago
castles can be don very easily as a no texture square ishshape based on its filed design at the LOD3 stage (im guessing) like a grey square?
tom
1 years ago
NO NO NOOOOOO……………
I dont like these blog posts, simply cause they show just how LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG we are going to have to wait for you guys to take our money. so we can enjoy the pure plessure of your game.
SwiftSpear
1 years ago
Hi Germain! I’m taking a uni course on AI right now, and I’m finding myself pretty confused about the system involved in your cellular path finder.
Presumably you’re using A* path finding for your dudes at the moment? You’re trying to reduce the grid size so A* is considering fewer options with each pass?
Ok, so the cellular system is a good solution for reducing the grid size, but how do you identify obstacles that prevent access from one cell to another and force a path through a third cell before you do the tile based path search? If cell path -> A* fails it’s first pass do you rerun A* in the global universe to ensure success? This seems like it would significantly slow down any pathing run that will ultimately result in a reported failure in that case. Do you flag off cells that have no cellular path to one and other (islands)? How do you keep that system up to date so it fixes when players build bridges, portals, whatever? What about paths being broken not because they are trying to find a path between different islands, but because players have built a wall across an island? Walls can destroy the pathing, but there can also be a door in the wall the system needs to be able to find…
I’d love to read up more about your system if you’ve got a source or what not for where you came up with the idea (if it wasn’t original). There’s some really interesting problems that seems like would need to be solved!
Francois
1 years ago
To answer your question properly, I would need an entire blog post. Maybe I should make one on that subject…
Anyway, the general idea is that the path cells are dynamic. When the world changes, the cells readapt. In the course of a normal game, many path cells are born and killed and each time a cell changes its stat, its’ connections with neighbour cells are redefined. We implemented that system when we realized it costs less CPU to make frequent but small tests (one or two hundred when a voxel changes) then paying for a full island scan when A* doesn’t find its’ way (more than 40 thousands).
SwiftSpear
1 years ago
Frankly, with questions this technical I’m pretty pleased you even bothered to respond at all :)
Personally I’d love some more detailed technical blog posts! But it’s up to you whether you feel there’s enough of a reader market to warrant it. Thanks for your time! If you’re interested in posting about details on that kind of stuff I’ll definitely be reading it for one!
Wouter Lievens
1 years ago
I think the correct name for Path Liberties would be Graph Connectivity.
Graham
1 years ago
I’m definitely looking forward to this game.
Thanks for including the playlists! I got the last week’s one seriously stuck in my head.
Looking forward to the addiction…
Graham
???
1 years ago
????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ???????? $ ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????? 100 ?????? ?? ? ? ????? ??????.
?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? Minecraft
cr125rider
1 years ago
This looks great. The soundtrack of the week make these posts awesome. A great extra little touch.
Rochcoach
1 years ago
For those of you who played Halo Reach, they used a system called impostoring, which just made objects uglier the father away they were. This made maps like Forge World possible, which is exactly what you guys are doing. Keep it up!
CyberOmen
1 years ago
I must say, this seems like a very sexy update. LOD3 is my favorite. Reminds me of an old RTS game I used to play, but can’t recall the name of. *Sigh* Memories.
1 years ago
Warcraft?
itaprgi
1 years ago
I think they should put a quality option, where min quality would have LOD3 or 4 even on the closest trees.
Ambalon
1 years ago
Good to hear everything’s running smoothly. I love the dev diary, both because, well, it’s as close as we can get to the game for now, and because you bother explaining to us non-game-dev peasants what exactly it is that you got done in the week.
And the music selection is awesome. I applaud your good taste.
Gameovergames
1 years ago
Plz make another post or make an InfDev (Infenit Devolpment), Alpha, Beta or an Demo!!!!! or another youtube video of it!!!! PLZ!!!!!
Floydde
1 years ago
Yeah the gameovergaming guy is right you guys have to make an new video of the game or make an demo with limited playtime or something!?
An ominous Victor
1 years ago
I have to admit, the thing with the trees, pure genius. I never knew that game designers put that much work into making path finders, path liberties, and non-CPU intensive graphics. Anyways, your right, LOD:3 tree does look absolutely hideous. I really look forward to buying your game, it reminds me of minecraft, but I don’t have to do all the work of placing blocks. I can’t wait.
Random Quote:
“If you think you can do a thing or think you can’t do a thing, your’re right.”
-Henry Ford
I think this game is going to be awesome.
bye,
Victor
Xylord
1 years ago
The pathfinding solution is very bright, probably would have never thought of that by myself! Also, happy you think about poor CPU’s, because mine is pretty weak. I will try getting an update before the first testings!
May Contain Spoilers
1 years ago
[...] for developer diaries.. Sauropod Studio‘s recent blog included mention of their Level of Detail system for use in Castle Story, which picks different geometry for an object depending how far it is from [...]
Kristine
1 years ago
I love these developer diaries.. and your explanations as well! Looking forward to the next diary almost as much as the game at this point! :)
properties in toronto
1 years ago
Dreary Day…
It was a dreary day here today, so I just took to piddeling around online and realized…
Fashion TV
1 years ago
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11 months ago
…another post about this topic…
[...]Very clean website , thanks for this post. [...]…
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11 months ago
Trackback…
Thanks a bunch for sharing this with all of us you really know what you are talking about! Bookmarked. Please also visit my site =). We could have a link exchange agreement between us!…
share Documents
11 months ago
social networking ,Share Videos, meet singles ,Share Music ,Share Videos ,Play Games…
socialflag.com is a utility that connects people with friends and others who work,…
Les niveaux de détails selon la distance de vue | CastleStory.fr : référence Castle Story
8 months ago
[...] ↬ [...]
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3 months ago
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3 months ago
Gems form the internet…
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Bryce Pelletier
1 years ago
Yea! Effein amazing. Definitely lookin forward to sending some Bricktrons down the top of a mountian and through the side so that the easiest way to the castle on top of the mountain is through the winding staircase that will surely be riddled with traps for the baddies. Glad to see such great progress! Keep it up.
Cheers
Bryce
Dont42Panic
1 years ago
I love you dev diaries! They’re fantastic! Not just, “Oh, we did this crazy term,” and leave it at that, but you explain your plans and changes so that we can understand how they work. It is a big inspiration to me, as a aspiring game dev. Thanks guys! Keep up the amazing work!
tom
1 years ago
i wish i could program to dev a game. most of what your guys say makes sense in a blah blah language way but it is still VERY interesting to read not to mention engaging
Riley
1 years ago
Can’t wait to play.
Chris
1 years ago
Awesome diary as usual guys.
One question, how are you going to scale the LOD of complex user-created geometry? as in.. the castles!
Ryan
1 years ago
I’m guessing there won’t be hundreds of thousands of castles, so it won’t take too much processing power to fully render 30 full castles. 300,000 trees, different story.
Germain
1 years ago
We reconstruct the local geometry with a version that’s a bit more simple. For example, we use a pre-made model for stairs. We could switch that pre-made model for a simple slope instead. There’s a limit, however, to how much triangles we can save with this solution.
1 years ago
castles can be don very easily as a no texture square ishshape based on its filed design at the LOD3 stage (im guessing) like a grey square?
tom
1 years ago
NO NO NOOOOOO……………
I dont like these blog posts, simply cause they show just how LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG we are going to have to wait for you guys to take our money. so we can enjoy the pure plessure of your game.
SwiftSpear
1 years ago
Hi Germain! I’m taking a uni course on AI right now, and I’m finding myself pretty confused about the system involved in your cellular path finder.
Presumably you’re using A* path finding for your dudes at the moment? You’re trying to reduce the grid size so A* is considering fewer options with each pass?
Ok, so the cellular system is a good solution for reducing the grid size, but how do you identify obstacles that prevent access from one cell to another and force a path through a third cell before you do the tile based path search? If cell path -> A* fails it’s first pass do you rerun A* in the global universe to ensure success? This seems like it would significantly slow down any pathing run that will ultimately result in a reported failure in that case. Do you flag off cells that have no cellular path to one and other (islands)? How do you keep that system up to date so it fixes when players build bridges, portals, whatever? What about paths being broken not because they are trying to find a path between different islands, but because players have built a wall across an island? Walls can destroy the pathing, but there can also be a door in the wall the system needs to be able to find…
I’d love to read up more about your system if you’ve got a source or what not for where you came up with the idea (if it wasn’t original). There’s some really interesting problems that seems like would need to be solved!
Francois
1 years ago
To answer your question properly, I would need an entire blog post. Maybe I should make one on that subject…
Anyway, the general idea is that the path cells are dynamic. When the world changes, the cells readapt. In the course of a normal game, many path cells are born and killed and each time a cell changes its stat, its’ connections with neighbour cells are redefined. We implemented that system when we realized it costs less CPU to make frequent but small tests (one or two hundred when a voxel changes) then paying for a full island scan when A* doesn’t find its’ way (more than 40 thousands).
SwiftSpear
1 years ago
Frankly, with questions this technical I’m pretty pleased you even bothered to respond at all :)
Personally I’d love some more detailed technical blog posts! But it’s up to you whether you feel there’s enough of a reader market to warrant it. Thanks for your time! If you’re interested in posting about details on that kind of stuff I’ll definitely be reading it for one!
Wouter Lievens
1 years ago
I think the correct name for Path Liberties would be Graph Connectivity.
Graham
1 years ago
I’m definitely looking forward to this game.
Thanks for including the playlists! I got the last week’s one seriously stuck in my head.
Looking forward to the addiction…
Graham
???
1 years ago
????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ???????? $ ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????? 100 ?????? ?? ? ? ????? ??????.
?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? Minecraft
cr125rider
1 years ago
This looks great. The soundtrack of the week make these posts awesome. A great extra little touch.
Rochcoach
1 years ago
For those of you who played Halo Reach, they used a system called impostoring, which just made objects uglier the father away they were. This made maps like Forge World possible, which is exactly what you guys are doing. Keep it up!
CyberOmen
1 years ago
I must say, this seems like a very sexy update. LOD3 is my favorite. Reminds me of an old RTS game I used to play, but can’t recall the name of. *Sigh* Memories.
1 years ago
Warcraft?
itaprgi
1 years ago
I think they should put a quality option, where min quality would have LOD3 or 4 even on the closest trees.
Ambalon
1 years ago
Good to hear everything’s running smoothly. I love the dev diary, both because, well, it’s as close as we can get to the game for now, and because you bother explaining to us non-game-dev peasants what exactly it is that you got done in the week.
And the music selection is awesome. I applaud your good taste.
Gameovergames
1 years ago
Plz make another post or make an InfDev (Infenit Devolpment), Alpha, Beta or an Demo!!!!! or another youtube video of it!!!! PLZ!!!!!
Floydde
1 years ago
Yeah the gameovergaming guy is right you guys have to make an new video of the game or make an demo with limited playtime or something!?
An ominous Victor
1 years ago
I have to admit, the thing with the trees, pure genius. I never knew that game designers put that much work into making path finders, path liberties, and non-CPU intensive graphics. Anyways, your right, LOD:3 tree does look absolutely hideous. I really look forward to buying your game, it reminds me of minecraft, but I don’t have to do all the work of placing blocks. I can’t wait.
Random Quote:
“If you think you can do a thing or think you can’t do a thing, your’re right.”
-Henry Ford
I think this game is going to be awesome.
bye,
Victor
Xylord
1 years ago
The pathfinding solution is very bright, probably would have never thought of that by myself! Also, happy you think about poor CPU’s, because mine is pretty weak. I will try getting an update before the first testings!
May Contain Spoilers
1 years ago
[...] for developer diaries.. Sauropod Studio‘s recent blog included mention of their Level of Detail system for use in Castle Story, which picks different geometry for an object depending how far it is from [...]
Kristine
1 years ago
I love these developer diaries.. and your explanations as well! Looking forward to the next diary almost as much as the game at this point! :)
properties in toronto
1 years ago
Dreary Day…
It was a dreary day here today, so I just took to piddeling around online and realized…
Fashion TV
1 years ago
Sources…
[...]check below, are some totally unrelated websites to ours, however, they are most trustworthy sources that we use[...]……
african mango extract
1 years ago
{HCG oral Drops|Hcg Diet Drops|HCG Diet|HCG Drops}…
Please read my brand new piece here….
Florist
1 years ago
Recent Blogroll Additions……
[...]usually posts some very interesting stuff like this. If you’re new to this site[...]……
anti inflammatory for dogs
1 years ago
Online Article……
[...]The information mentioned in the article are some of the best available [...]……
alkoholproblem
1 years ago
Recent Blogroll Additions……
[...]usually posts some very interesting stuff like this. If you’re new to this site[...]……
tiles for the bathroom
1 years ago
…If you like this post, you may check this also…
[...]please visit the web-sites we follow, including this one, as it represents our picks on the web[...]…
gay guy its ok
1 years ago
gay love story…
It’s in point of fact a nice and helpful piece of information. I’m satisfied that you shared this helpful info with us. Please stay us informed like this. Thanks for sharing….
Michael Kors
11 months ago
…another post about this topic…
[...]Very clean website , thanks for this post. [...]…
elegante Partykleider
11 months ago
Trackback…
Thanks a bunch for sharing this with all of us you really know what you are talking about! Bookmarked. Please also visit my site =). We could have a link exchange agreement between us!…
share Documents
11 months ago
social networking ,Share Videos, meet singles ,Share Music ,Share Videos ,Play Games…
socialflag.com is a utility that connects people with friends and others who work,…
Les niveaux de détails selon la distance de vue | CastleStory.fr : référence Castle Story
8 months ago
[...] ↬ [...]
Google
3 months ago
Google…
[...]below you will locate the link to some internet sites that we feel you need to visit[...]…
green coffee extract
3 months ago
Gems form the internet…
[...]very few websites that happen to be detailed below, from our point of view are undoubtedly well worth checking out[...]……
I am a scammer
3 months ago
I am a scammer…
[...]Wonderful story, reckoned we could combine a couple of unrelated information, nonetheless seriously worth taking a appear, whoa did one particular study about Mid East has got far more problerms at the same time [...]…
ProComputerGambler
3 months ago
ProComputerGambler…
[...]usually posts some incredibly exciting stuff like this. If you are new to this site[...]…
momubyfvrxeszw.com
3 months ago
Title…
[...]although sites we backlink to beneath are considerably not related to ours, we feel they’re actually worth a go as a result of, so possess a look[...]…